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May 31, 2009 21:52:48 GMT -5
Post by Naitch on May 31, 2009 21:52:48 GMT -5
Man, thats my Uncle your talking about. That ain't right bro.
Nah, I'm just kidding, its just that Luscious is probation right now so hes staying quiet.
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Jun 3, 2009 17:47:20 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 3, 2009 17:47:20 GMT -5
I've now watched season 5.
I wasn't enjoying it too much at first. I thought that the people left on the island going back to 1977 and joining the Dharma Initiative was a little unnecessary at first. And the Oceanic 6 seemingly running around in circles and bickering with each other before finally going back to the island was annoying me. I think I have really just grown a little tired of characters like Jack and Kate because of how they are always spouting how they are "doing the right thing" but neither of them really have any idea what they are talking about half of the time or tend to over-dramatise their actions and antics.
Once they did get back to the island though, things really picked up. Like I said, I wasn't too keen on the time travellers joining the Dharma Initiative at first, I thought it would have been one of those things that would complicate things for no real reason, but to my surprise it worked into the story really well and was essential for explaining and giving us a glimspe into so much of what had happened previously on the island.
Many things were answered. More than I am likely aware of because there must be so much things from the earlier seasons that I have forgotten. But it really was noticable that the threads were being brought together in preparation of being tied together in the final season. Some of the constant characters I am finding it hard to care about too much now, though. It's not that I don't care, but I am far more interested in the struggles between the likes of Ben, Charles Whidmore, Richard and the Others, and Jacob and his friend (Moses).
The bigger picture is just so intreaging that the plane crash and the people on it, which has been the focus of the majority of the series, has been pushed so far back into the background for me. The closing scenes with Juliet detonating the H-Bomb, and Jacob apparently being murdered were great. For the next season, I hope they tie up the past (1977) happenings quickly and build up to a thorough and clear ending in present date (2007).
Some thoughts.
At the start of the final episode when Jacob and "Moses" are talking on the beach. That ship off in the distance looked almost identical to the one Richard was building in his bottle. I'm guessing that Richard was on that ship and has been on the island ever since. I'm no maritime expert or anything, but the ship looked old. I'm guessing at least a few centuries old, maybe around the 1400-1500's. Perhaps Richard was on the ship (maybe a Spanish ship - a powerful and adventurous country at that time) and somehow discovered the island. The rest of the Others probably came in at different periods throughout the centuries.
With Juliet detonating the bomb, I can't think of any other explantion other than to think that she, as well as anyone else near it such as Jack, Kate and Sawyer must all be dead. Remember, although they were in the past, it is still the present for them. They are still travelling the one-way thread through time that we all do. It doesn't matter if it skipped back a few decades, it doesn't make them immune from anything. I doubt they will have died, but I'm not sure how they would have wriggled out of that one. Another thing I've noticed is that down near the shore in one specific area, the rock looks like it is dried molten. I'm guessing the H-Bomb exploding may have set off an eruption.
It was great to finally see Jacob. And even though he was seemingly killed, I'm not going to believe that just yet. I think he is immortal. Either that or he simply doesn't age, like Richard. But, Jacob and Richard aren't ordinary humans it seems.
How everything relates is still confusing to me, though. What are the true agendas of the likes of Whidmore, Daniel's mother and Ben. He seemed to a lot less assured of himself this season, but you can never tell with Ben. I'm thinking Richard might be someone as influencial as Jacob, but is hiding in plain sight, so to speak. And just why did "Moses" want to kill Jacob, why did he need a loophole, and how did he manage to possess a dead man's body?
I was quite disappointed with last season (4) because it seemed nothing was ever going to be explained, but this season, on the whole, was good. Roll on the final season now!
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Jun 3, 2009 22:23:08 GMT -5
Post by Champ on Jun 3, 2009 22:23:08 GMT -5
I actually enjoyed the time travel in the beginning with the people left behind joining the Dharma initiative because it explained so much on why Ben and the others already knew so much about the people that crashed
The Oceanic 6 was bickering was a little annoying but it was also necessary because you can't realistically expect them to just all agree right off the bat. One of the main focal points in Lost is the fact that so many people don't get along or see eye to eye.
You also have to remember that Ben killed Jacob right around the same time that Juliette detonated the bomb. Jacob's death could possibly cause a time warp because even though 1977 was the present for them, they still aren't 100% sure if what they did in that time happened already or if they were changing history.
They really did an excellent build up on that. It got to the point where you truly didn't know if Jacob was even a human being(or in human form) or if he in fact existed at all. OR...is Jacob the island itself. I'll be damned, it was actually a real guy they've all met before.
Don't have much of a comment here because I'm about as confused as you
Season 4 was by far the slowest season. It rarely ever left me wanting more whereas Season 5 I couldn't get enough! Season 4 was cut short though and the last few eps of season 4 I believe started season 5 instead. It almost made sense the season 4 would have ended the 4th or 5th eps of Season 5. The eps where they saw Sawyer for the first time back on the island was where I imagined season 4 should have ended. Then the first eps of season 5 should have been when Hurley ran up and hugged Sawyer. But the lack of material in season 4 made season 5 that much more awesome.
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Jun 4, 2009 11:37:15 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 4, 2009 11:37:15 GMT -5
I actually enjoyed the time travel in the beginning with the people left behind joining the Dharma initiative because it explained so much on why Ben and the others already knew so much about the people that crashed That wouldn't fully explain how they knew so much. Remember when they had Jack captive, Juliet came in and had a thick folder containing details of Jack that were right up to date. They even knew that he was flying home with his father's body. You also have to remember that Ben killed Jacob right around the same time that Juliette detonated the bomb. Jacob's death could possibly cause a time warp because even though 1977 was the present for them, they still aren't 100% sure if what they did in that time happened already or if they were changing history. I don't know if the events would be that significant. Even though they were presented alongside each other on the show, they were still 30 years apart. Even when Juliet detonated the bomb, it happened in 1977, so must have always happened. Even when they first crashed on the island, all the events that they were involved in in 1977 must have already happened previously. At least, that's what I'm gathering from it. They really did an excellent build up on that. It got to the point where you truly didn't know if Jacob was even a human being(or in human form) or if he in fact existed at all. OR...is Jacob the island itself. I'll be damned, it was actually a real guy they've all met before. I don't think that the island is a living and conscious being. I think someone like Jacob or Moses, or most likely both, are able to control and alter everything on the island. The way people like Ben talk about the island as being conscious is maybe just something he, and the Others, have been told. But in reality, it is both Jacob and Moses who can control the island. It seems, if I'm right with this, that Jacob holds more power than Moses, and Moses wants the island all to himself. The real struggle is between these two for total control of the island, it's just not yet clear who is on what side, if any. Also, nothing too significant, but I'm glad they brought Kenny Rogers (Frank) back. He was probably my favourite character from last season.
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Jun 4, 2009 15:46:53 GMT -5
Post by Champ on Jun 4, 2009 15:46:53 GMT -5
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Jun 4, 2009 16:06:29 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 4, 2009 16:06:29 GMT -5
I was a little disappointed that Desmond was not heavily featured this season. I think he will return at some point next season and play a big role. Remember he is able to foresee the future.
It is the agendas of most people that I'm wondering about. Like you said before about the bickering, they don't all agree on things. I didn't agree with Jack that the best thing to try for was to change the past in 1977 so they would never crash on the plane. I don't think that plan will work, but it was so typical of Jack. He never seems to learn that he isn't in a position to play God and try to "fix" everything. In any case, having been advised by Daniel, I suppose they couldn't really object to it.
Those passengers who had Locke's body in the box and talked to Richard near the end are obviously up to something. I'm not sure what, though. I'm sure I saw one of those guys in the car when Miles was briefly abducted and warned about going to the island. They seemed to be opposed to him working for Widmore, but where their loyalties lie, I'm not sure.
Also, it seems Locke was simply an unwitting pawn all along, who was manipulated and used. That is quite sad.
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Jun 4, 2009 23:41:52 GMT -5
Post by Champ on Jun 4, 2009 23:41:52 GMT -5
LOL It really is so typical of Jack. Jack sucks. I liked him mid-season when Kate wanted to save young Ben and Jack was like, uh so, let him die. It seemed like Jack was finally improving and just letting everything unfold and then he had to play god again by risking everyone's life. He's such a douche
Locke is totally the Eric Bischoff of Lost
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Jun 5, 2009 12:18:27 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 5, 2009 12:18:27 GMT -5
I thought Jack understood that it didn't matter what they done, everything would still be as it was as they knew it in the future because whatever had happened or was going to happen in their current timeline (1977) had already happened. No matter what they do in 1977, it is what has always happened.
Also, I just realised something today. Maybe it was obvious and you guys have already clicked on to it, but it sunk in with me today. Jack's dad showing up in place of Jacob to give Locke advice was always strange, but I now understand why. Just like he did with Locke's dead body on the island, Moses used Christian's body to communicate with people. For a reason we're not yet aware of, he couldn't use Christian's body to do whatever it is he wants to do. So through Christian's body he manipulated Locke to do things that he needed done, and convinced him to kill himself when off the island so that he could then use his body when he came back. The reason may simply be that Locke was on the island when alive and had became known and somewhat trusted by the Others. Therefore it would be easier for him to infiltrate the Others and get to Jacob.
When those guys from the second plane crash found Jacob's hut, they realised that someone else had been using it. All along Jacob was never communicating with Locke, it was Moses doing it through Christian. Those survivors knew that something was up and seemed to try and warn Richard before anything happened to Jacob, but it seems they were too late.
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Jun 5, 2009 13:24:19 GMT -5
Post by Naitch on Jun 5, 2009 13:24:19 GMT -5
Moses didn't know where Jacob was when he was in Christian's body. He needed Richard to show him where he was hiding.
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Jun 5, 2009 15:38:38 GMT -5
Post by Snitskyman2016 on Jun 5, 2009 15:38:38 GMT -5
Moses didn't know where Jacob was when he was in Christian's body. He needed Richard to show him where he was hiding. Holy shit thats a good theory. Richard seemed to be 100% about protecting Jacob but finally got embarrassed into showing Fake Locke.I am suprised Rich went along with Jack's atom bomb theory but all the proof of time travel made him feel he had to go along with it.
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Jun 5, 2009 15:42:12 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 5, 2009 15:42:12 GMT -5
Yeah, but what I was meaning was that if he had just walked onto the beach after the original crash in 2004 as Christian, then Jack would be wondering why the hell his dead father was wandering about and living again. Locke had established himself on the island and gradually got in the circles with the Others.
With some of the survivors going back in time and living with the Dharma Initiative in 1977 and interacting with the Others, the crash in 2004 will be something that at least some, such as Richard, long serving Others will know is coming. And with the infrequent "pockets" that allow people to find the island, it wouldn't surprise me now if one or more of the passengers on Oceanic 815 were more than simple passengers and were working for someone to further their agenda, whether it be the Others themselves, or Whidmore, or whoever else might be involved. Maybe even one of the main characters have been prepared and working for someone secretly all along.
Also, they still have to explain why Walt was so special in the first couple of seasons.
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Jun 6, 2009 0:29:18 GMT -5
Post by Naitch on Jun 6, 2009 0:29:18 GMT -5
Well lets put down the facts/theories we know and see if we can work from there.
1. Moses and Jacob were on the island for a long time.
2. Moses can jump in dead peoples bodies.
3. Moses may be friends with Smokey. He did convince Ben to kill Jacob (when Ben saw is Daughter in the Judgment Smoke was she Moses? Locke didn't show up until after that ordeal).
4. Jacob appears to be a stand up individual with potential powers. Or at least the ability to win hearts and minds with speech.
5. Jacob may have held Moses prisoner of some sort. They definitely had a falling out of some kind. Father/son maybe?
6. Moses apparently does his homework. He knows at least some of what his corpse knows.
7. While Jacob was hiding, Christian Moses was talking as if he was Jacob. Told Locke before he time traveled to the mainland that he could speak for Jacob.
8. Moses hated the idea of visitors on the island. He got pouty with Jacob when they saw The Black Rock coming for the island. Is it a prison to him? Was Jacob his warden of sorts?
9. Was killing Jacob the impossible or was it the consequences that made him not able to do it?
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Jun 6, 2009 13:56:13 GMT -5
Post by MasterSnit on Jun 6, 2009 13:56:13 GMT -5
1. Moses and Jacob were on the island for a long time.
Yes. Perhaps even thousands of years B.C. The statue with four toes is some sort of Egyptian God or Goddess.
2. Moses can jump in dead peoples bodies.
Yes. He might also be able to possess multiple dead bodies. Although we're unsure if she is dead, Claire appeared with Christian in Jacob's hut one time.
3. Moses may be friends with Smokey. He did convince Ben to kill Jacob (when Ben saw is Daughter in the Judgment Smoke was she Moses? Locke didn't show up until after that ordeal).
It could have been Moses in Ben's daughter's body. Like I said above, maybe he can project himself in to multiple bodies at the same time. I'm not so sure if Smokey is on either Moses or Jacob's side. I don't think Smokey has any allegiances. It simply seems to judge people then kill them if they are judged to be "bad" and spared if they are judged to be "good".
4. Jacob appears to be a stand up individual with potential powers. Or at least the ability to win hearts and minds with speech.
Yes, but the survivors seem to have put their trust in almost everyone throughout the series at some point. Mainly because they usually don't have much of a choice, or knowledge on the people who appear to be helping them. Jacob seems like a decent guy so far, but that can change.
5. Jacob may have held Moses prisoner of some sort. They definitely had a falling out of some kind. Father/son maybe?
I don't think Moses is a prisoner, I just think Jacob is calling the shots on the island and Moses wants him gone so he can rule. What they disagree on and why Moses hates Jacob so much, I'm not sure. I don't think they are father and son. Maybe brothers.
6. Moses apparently does his homework. He knows at least some of what his corpse knows.
Maybe he can access the memories of the bodies he uses.
7. While Jacob was hiding, Christian Moses was talking as if he was Jacob. Told Locke before he time traveled to the mainland that he could speak for Jacob.
I imagine he was just lying about being able to speak for Jacob.
8. Moses hated the idea of visitors on the island. He got pouty with Jacob when they saw The Black Rock coming for the island. Is it a prison to him? Was Jacob his warden of sorts?
Oh yeah, I forgot about the boat wreckage that was already on the island. It must be the same ship. Again, I don't really think either Moses or Jacob are trapped on the island. It seems to me that it is simply a power struggle. Jacob wants to experiment and open the island up to human visitors. Moses doesn't. I'm unsure of the reasoning for both men.
9. Was killing Jacob the impossible or was it the consequences that made him not able to do it?
I'm guessing that Moses couldn't kill Jacob in his own body because, even though Ben stabbed him a couple of time, Moses finished the job off when he kicked Jacob into the fire. So, if Jacob is dead, technically it was Moses who did it. Or, at least contributed.
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Jun 6, 2009 20:16:31 GMT -5
Post by Champ on Jun 6, 2009 20:16:31 GMT -5
I actually never thought of that! I totally overlooked the jumping in bodies to. That's like the most important thing too!
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Jun 6, 2009 20:19:43 GMT -5
Post by Naitch on Jun 6, 2009 20:19:43 GMT -5
I actually never thought of that! I totally overlooked the jumping in bodies to. That's like the most important thing too! Dude, we're just piecing the puzzle right now. Everyone is bringing up stuff every other individual missed. To bad the show is ending soon.
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